Ep06 - How to improve sales and marketing funnel in B2B?

Episode Description

On today's episode of The Revenue Stream, I had the opportunity to chat with Andrew Allsop, Senior Demand Gen Manager at BRYTER.Andrew comes with several years of experience running his own agency (Wonderkind), selling it to Powered by Search, and running Demand Gen that drives pipeline and closes into revenue for several B2B companies.

We talk about the importance of understanding the impact of channel metrics on your bottomline metrics, what it takes to convert an MQL to Opportunity efficiently, why and how you should segment your campaign efforts, forecasting and planning your campaigns for it, and the importance of scrutinizing your data.

I had loads of fun chatting with Andrew in this episode and I hope you enjoy the show too. See ya on the other side. 👋

Show Notes

Follow Andrew Allsop: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewallsop/

Learn more about BRYTER: https://bryter.com

Article on forecasting by Andrew Allsop: https://www.poweredbysearch.com/blog/b2b-saas-marketing-funnel-forecasting/

Follow Vikash: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vikashkoushik/

Learn more about RevenueHero: https://www.revenuehero.io/

Episode Transcription

Vikash: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Revenue Stream. I'm your host Vikash Koushik. Today I'm super pumped to have Andrew Allsop, senior demand gen manager at BRYTER. Like most tech marketers I met Andrew, I think on Twitter, it was about some, some conversation about. And geeking about it. That's how I met him.

Uh, and I think he was running Wunderkind agency back then. And since then, he, I think he, he sold that agency to Powered by Search. Which is again, an incredible agency. Uh, anybody, uh, I think most people in SaaS knows about Powered by Agency, Powered by Search Agency. I'm super pumped to have Andrew Allsop.

Personally, I think he's one of the, one of those rare marketers who, who isn't just talking about. CTRs, uh, CPLs, uh, just, just those metrics alone is one of those rare marketers that I [00:01:00] think is able to also combine them see how each of those metrics impact the, the business overall.

How, how does that translate to pipeline? How does each of these conversion metrics translate to pipeline and finally, revenue? Uh, right. So, which is why I've, I've, I've been following him for a while now. So excited to have Andrew today. Andrew, welcome to the show. 

Andrew Allsop:
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. And it's, um, such a pleasure to finally be able to have this conversation with you.

I feel like every time. You know, there's people that you engage with a lot online and every time you have a conversation, I feel like it went on for way too long without having this face to face, but yeah, it's also great to hear you articulate what you take from the things that I post. Um, so, you know, with Twitter and LinkedIn and that kind of thing, like you go in and out of being actively trying to post more and then just, you know, sometimes you just post what comes to mind and that kind of thing.

But I think throughout my entire career, I've always had the same [00:02:00] philosophy and approach on things. And that's obviously developed as a, as I've progressed, but. I'm just glad that you take that message away. So it's great to, um, it's great to have got that feedback. 

Let me know if you have any tips, um, sometime in the future, because I've been trying to, you know, Be a little bit more consistent as well in my posting if you look at my twitter feed at least recently Um, it's just been me reposting a bunch of stuff. Uh, I think i've become more active on linkedin I don't know what the product managers at linkedin are doing but there's something there that's that has made me a little bit more active still not as active, uh as I would have loved to. 

Andrew Allsop:
Yeah, yeah, I think LinkedIn certainly made a lot of good moves recently to like invigorate the community over there.

There's certainly so much more valuable conversation goes on there and you know with LinkedIn there's also a lot of Cringy conversation that goes on there and, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's the fear of falling into that, um, into that realm of being cringy, which I [00:03:00] certainly have the potential to do.

Um, but yeah, Twitter, Twitter's, it's different now. I, I feel like I spend a lot more time on Twitter, Twitter, but I'm a lot more Less active on Twitter in terms of like posting and, you know, proactively building the community and that sort of thing. So, but yeah, it definitely feels that LinkedIn is a place to be at the moment.

I feel like there's also a lot of private communities that are, um, that are great for this sort of work focus conversation as well. So. I'd say, yeah, LinkedIn, but also do, do you have a lot of things like, uh, you know, demand collective pavilion, that kind of thing as well. I feel like that's where I get a lot of my value from at the moment.

Let's get into it. Right. Like I, I, there was this post that you posted, I think a month, month and a half back, uh, where you spoke about growing businesses efficiently month on month, quarter on quarter, and, and the graph is always trending up and to the right, right? So I'm just trying to understand, like, what are some of the [00:04:00] things that you've seen work really well, right?

Like, especially given that you've, you've spent a bunch of time, uh, you know, working at agencies, you've built your own agency. I'm sure like you've worked with tons of clients. So, like, what are some of the things that you've seen are like super common with, uh, companies that are able to, you know, uh, keep growing consistently .

Andrew Allsop:
Yeah. So with that post, essentially there is a category of marketer that is focused on making gains in metrics that don't make a huge amount of impact in the overall sales and marketing funnel. So for example, Google ads, you know, Google ads gets a lot of, a lot of stick. It's a fantastic channel, but if you change the conversion rate of your Google ads from 2. 5 percent to 3%, the actual tangible impact that it makes on your business, on your business is, is, is very small to get that requires [00:05:00] a lot of investment. So whether you bring on. Whether that is, you know, your own investment in your own time to improve that, whether it's an investment in an agency to get results that a previous agency hasn't been able to do, you have to make a lot of investment to make an improvement that might seem large, but when you track down to like how much differences that may make in terms of MQL is how much difference does that make in terms of pipelines and all that kind of pipeline and all that kind of thing, it is insignificant.

So the scope of focus that I think that we need to have as marketers and how we judge and assess the impact of our marketing is more on like the sort of key points of leverage that you have throughout the sales and marketing funnel. So if I can, you've, you know, you've got maybe like five of these key points.

So you've got the amount of spend. You've got the amount of people that land on your website, the ones that convert to leads to MQLs to opportunities and then [00:06:00] opportunities to customers. And then your average customer lifetime value. So if they're not, if you're not making a tangible impact on one of these, you know, sort of like top line metrics, then, then the impact that you're making overall is relatively insignificant.

Compared to the amount of energy that you'd have to make that you have to put in to make that change, and it's maybe even easier to make a change on to make a 0. 5 percent improvement in your win rate is maybe easier than making a 0. 5 percent improvement on the conversion rate of a single channel. Um, because everyone has that, everyone is aware, you know, you run Google ads, you do single keyword ad groups.

Like you have like your competitors keywords, there's a playbooks for all these things. There's only so many improvements that you can make that when it comes to things like, you know, making a lead convert to an MQL better, maybe make an MQL converted to opportunity better. There's so much more potential that goes unexplored that has, um, a much greater The efficiency of your [00:07:00] sales and marketing funnel, the more efficient your funnel is, means that you acquire customers for less, which means you can invest more into your sales and marketing, which means you can outspend competitors, you know, when the market become a guerrilla in your market, that sort of thing.

So that's what that post was about. In terms of companies that I see doing things well, they are companies that understand that a lot of things that a marketer will intuitively focus on are trivial. So, I think it all comes down to from this is maybe a bias of mine because I've, you know, I focused on analytics a lot from my career and data and all that kind of stuff, which is why I feel sort of confident in the conclusion that I've got to on this, but it all boils down to how you report on and assess the impact of your marketing.

So if you, if you ask someone who creates a report and you're like, this is how many clicks, this, how many conversions I've got, you know, this is my, [00:08:00] Projected pipeline value, then your scope of influence is defined by how you're assessing and communicating the impact that you have in. If you're then a marketer who is able to understand the impact that you have on these top line metrics and how the dynamics work between, you know, your win rate, your conversion rates and your opportunity to lead to opportunity, that kind of thing. Then your scope of potential becomes much larger and your, the, your ability to communicate the impact that you make becomes much more tangible. Um, so I think it all comes down to how do you assess the impact that you're making as a marketer.

And how do you define the scope of the impact that you're able to make? Um, yeah. And a lot of that just comes down to reporting at the end of the day. Um, that is, you know, a report in [00:09:00] reporting the outputs that you've created. And, and, and just knowing, knowing, knowing the sorts of outputs that you're able to have an impact on.

I have so many follow up questions to this. So one, I think you mentioned, uh, the, the impact of a channel further down in your pipeline, right? Like, uh, if you can increase the conversion rate, say for, for your MQL to opportunity that has more impact on the bottom line metrics for the business. Versus and probably is comparatively also a little bit easier, uh, versus trying to, you know, achieve the same half a percent or 1 percent increase on the channel itself, right?

So Google Ads in this case, right? The question here is like, yes, different companies define MQLs and opportunities a little bit differently. Like, what are some really good levers that you can pull to, you know, increase that conversion rate for MQL to [00:10:00] opportunity, right?

Uh, because I'm sure like marketers who are probably listening to this podcast, right? Like they'd want to know that, especially after you share that with them. Like, what are some levels that you can pull for, say, uh, MQL to SQL or MQL to Opportunity? And of course, for Opportunity to Close One, I think there's a lot of influence on like, you know, what your sales process looks like, what is your average ACV like, what is your sales cycle like, all that stuff, right?

Andrew Allsop:
Yeah, so from my perspective, if you want to make an impact on these kind of numbers, the easiest thing that you can do is to analyze Segment the people that go through your funnel, look for the segments that have a good conversion rate and look for the, look for the segments that have, you know, when I speak about conversion rates, I'm speaking of lead to MQL to opportunity to, to customer.

So you will see that there were big differences in the different kinds of segments. And we did this exercise with a company when I was at Powered by Search. Um, they. They didn't, they didn't [00:11:00] segment the marketing. The marketing was sort of intent driven. So, you know, people searching for keywords in that were relevant to their product, um, and they sort of had this broad market focus and, you know, they're doing well as an organization, but, um, yeah, then the question comes up is how do we then improve these conversion rates?

And we did some deep analysis and you know, I need to be careful not to give too much away or like, um, you know, there's private confidential information, that kind of thing. So I'll just try to speak about it from a broad perspective, but say they had two different segments and one of them was like financial services and the other one was insurance, the financial service, the leads that they're generating from financial services were far more likely, like significantly, like, you know, the conversion rates was in like the high twenties in financial services in terms of opportunities to close one customers.

In insurance, it was like, I think it was like 4 percent or something extremely low, just something that was like completely unworkable. But there was no, there was [00:12:00] no, there was nothing in the way that they approached marketing that acknowledged this difference. So if you're paying a hundred dollars to acquire a lead in insurance, and you're paying a hundred dollars to acquire a lead in financial services, but based on all the historical data and based on, you know, this comes down to their ability to.

Sell and serve customers and, you know, communicate how good they can do that to different sectors. They obviously didn't have that fit in insurance versus where they had it in financial services. Yet there was no prioritization of Aviva segment over the other. So. I feel like it's what a lot of people want to hear, you know, put in this start 10 step lead flow and use this kind of language and this kind of stuff.

But it comes back to a lot of like old school things, which is just basically segmentation and yeah, if I was going to say, do you need to do one thing to improve these numbers, it's segment that [00:13:00] funnel by different aspects of your market, whether that is. Demographics, firmographics, whether that is by channel, you are going to see that there are parts of that funnel that are bringing the average down.

You get rid of them, you put that investment back into the strong segments, you're going to see improvements. I reckon about 75 percent of people who do that exercise would, would, would get that kind of impact out of it. 

Love it. Amazing. A quick follow up question here. Like, what are, what are some different segmentations that, you know, you can, you can do like your typical, uh, based on industry, uh, which channels are driving, you know, best conversion rates.

Another thing that I can think about is persona based. Like if you have, if you're going after multiple personas, like is there one specific persona that's like always converting the best for you? Anything else that comes to your mind? 

Andrew Allsop:
Um, I mean, I would start off from the, from the [00:14:00] basic, uh, you know, I'd start off in terms of industry types, marketing channels, geographies, um, start from there and then dig in, um, there's, there's obviously a million ways, like, If you're using an enrichment service, you know, you have maybe 900 properties that you can use to segment your data by, um, if you are smart with your data collection and you know, you see the data that you're collecting on forms as part of your overall strategy, then, you know, then there's an infinite ways of which you could segment it, but I wouldn't, unless you're doing these kinds of basic segmentations and I wouldn't recommend going any deeper than that, essentially.

Figure it out first and then go deep, like the potential is, is, you know, is bottomless. But unless you are, unless you're able to put, you know, figure out what to do to perform this basic analysis, then going, going deeper doesn't really make sense at that point in time. So yeah, [00:15:00] start from the, start from the simple and get more complicated over time.

You know, it's general advice that I'd appreciate. You could probably apply to any question, to be honest. 

Nice. Um, I think the other thing that was really interesting for me personally was being able to report on something and, uh, that's going to have a massive impact on like how you, how you look at things.

Right. So another thing that I feel like a lot of marketers, I think, especially marketing leaders probably benefit a lot is forecasting. Like, uh, I know, I think, I think you wrote. An article about, uh, forecasting as well in detail, that's like bread and butter for a lot of marketing leaders, senior marketers, right?

So can you talk a little bit around that, uh, as well? Because I think a lot of that is connected, right? Like, so if, especially if you want to, if you're, if you want to become a marketer who's, uh, reporting on these like, uh, metrics that impact your bottom line. Right? Being able to see if you're able to [00:16:00] hit your forecast, right?

And if that doesn't happen, what, uh, what is my plan A? What is my plan B? What is my plan C? Right? That's, that's typically how I, uh, think about it. Can you talk a little bit around, uh, forecasting and, uh, Absolutely. 

Andrew Allsop:
So if I can, if you remember correctly, this is around a project that I did with an organization and we got the, I think it was like six months out.

And they are, our goal was like 0. 01 percent out of the forecasted range. And, uh, you know, the peaks and troughs had followed the forecaster, like almost perfectly. And I'm not going to lie. Like there's a, there's in any degree of forecasting, I'm, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a, um, I'm I'm not a quantity. I'm not like my marketing is purely back.

My background is purely marketing. So there's a lot of like, there's a lot of look that goes into that as well. But then, you know, the way that we did approach putting that forecast together was probably was a smart way to approach it. And, you know, did also have a really significant. Impact [00:17:00] in how accurate that forecast was.

So that came down to, um, just breaking down that sales and marketing funnel into so many different segments. And, and again, speaking about these different points of leverage that we have in, in, in marketing. So no looking at spend, looking at traffic, looking at leads, look at MQLs and how that differs by channel, how that differs by month and all that kind of stuff, and then.

Um, you know, building a, we built a model in Excel where we could make like, if we increase the budget by 0. 5 percent on this channel, that makes this impact in the amount of leads. But then maybe that means that. Um, you know, the law of diminishing returns, maybe that means that the lead to MQL rate will go down.

And it was just, it was just having this whole model mapped out with this ability to tweak all of the variables, but also looking at things in a really pragmatic way in terms of nothing ever scales, um, and [00:18:00] stays as efficient as when it's at lower ends of the scale. And that's the, that's the law of diminishing returns.

That's just one of the laws of the universe, but people very rarely model that sort of stuff in. Um, so yeah, I think the success of that came down to, you know, understanding SaaS business model as a whole, like, you know, if you don't understand payback, payback, Payback periods, if you don't understand, you know, some of the financial elements that, um, that, that impacts marketing from a SaaS point of view, then you're not going to be able to build a model like that.

So, I guess it's, yeah, understanding SaaS at a deep level, like going beyond just what happens in marketing and, and, and having this understanding of like what's happening in the sales and sort of financial aspects of the business. If you can understand those then the way that you approach it as a market is completely changes But yeah in terms of putting the forecast together You have to understand like the SaaS business model.

You have to [00:19:00] Build a model and you have to be um You have to be realistic in terms of the changes that you can make and the impacts that you can have um But I think there's actually if you go on the Powered by search blog, there's maybe a write down about how we put that forecast together with a downloadable template.

So poweredbysearch.com forward slash blog, look for the forecasting blog wrote by me, and you'll have a complete breakdown about how it did that. 

I'll find the link and put it on show notes for sure. So one of the other questions that I had in my mind was. While you were speaking about this, the law of, uh, dimension returns, right?

Every channel has its maximum capacity, right? I think being able to figure that, Hey, we are almost, uh, hitting that peak. That's like super critical, right? Like, because now that it means that you have to, okay. If say, for example, Google ads is like one really good example, right? Like for [00:20:00] most companies, Google ads is usually the first channel that starts to plateau.

Typically, like what is the thought process that you, you, you have when it comes to trying to figure out like, Hey, is this channel, like, have we matched out on this channel or not? Right? Like, what is your typical thought process over there?

Andrew Allsop: So again, I think this, I think it all comes down to understanding how your business model works and the guide, the sort of the guardrails that you have to operate in. So, and maybe this is something that we could touch on later, but I feel like.

A big mistake that we make as marketers is, is not acknowledging that there is a local maximum for most channels and we put, you can get sort of 80%, 80 percent of the way to the results that you'll get from a channel with 20 percent of the energy and then the next 20 percent it takes, you know, the remaining 80 percent of energy and, and there's a whole thing around that, but.

If you've broken down your [00:21:00] business model, if you know, your lead to MQL conversion rate, your MQL top opportunity rate, and you know, all of these other metrics, then you know how much you can spend to acquire a lead in the channel. 

Oh, yeah. There's this metric that I often look at, right? Like, so you have your acceptable cost per, uh, MQL, right? Um, and I feel like a lot of marketers still don't track that. So you have your, like, if, if, if you're consistently crossing your acceptable cost per MQL, right? Maybe that's, that's your answer there, right?

You have to max out the channel at this point. From there on it's probably like no matter how much money you're going to put in like You're still going to get the same amount of results from that, right? 

Andrew Allsop:
If you're a reasonably experienced marketer, then There's not like I said you get you know If you're a reasonably good marketer You're going to get 80 of the results 20 of the effort and the next 20 is going to take a lot of time and [00:22:00] energy to get and you have to ask whether it is worthwhile and you know a certain scale then yes You And that's why you have specialists that focus on each individual channel and squeeze as much juice as possible out of each of those channels.

But if you're, if you're, you know, a growing business and your goals are considerably different to the reality that you are now, then getting that last 20 percent out of the channel is maybe not as good as looking for new tranches of um, leads and revenue, um, in terms of like, how do you assess it? I think, yeah, like, yeah.

Having an acceptable cost per MQL that gives you this sort of, um, steer around. Are you in the right area and is that getting better and worse? Um, but also, you know, once you, if it is a new channel and you don't have like, you know, channels, like MQL opportunity does change by channel. So even if you're getting MQLs at a [00:23:00] certain cost and that fits within your existing model, then if you introduce a new channel, if you introduce a new segment, then these dynamics do change.

So. It might be the case that your MQLs are higher for a certain channel, but then they convert to opportunities better, which means you've got more opportunities to invest into that channel. Um, but yeah, without knowing how things work at a segmented level and you can't really make those decisions. And I feel like a lot of people do overlook.

You know, I, I analyze a lot of companies. I look at a lot of like CRM setups and that kind of thing. I see maybe more opportunities. Missed then, um, then like wrong investments made if, if that makes sense. So, um, like for example, you know, I worked with a company who had a lead gen program and they had this amazing conversion rate from lead to customers.

[00:24:00] And the whole dynamic of how that was set up is like something I've learned a lot from, but. They didn't know that. So they didn't, They did lead gen because they thought they had to, but they didn't know to what degree that was contributing towards, um, their top, their, you know, their business. And it's strange that like, you do see that a lot where there is like something that is just contributing huge amounts with huge amounts of opportunity that just goes overlooked because.

Nobody's looking at it, nobody's got, had it segmented out by, you know, to what degree of our pipeline is made up by our lead generation efforts, for example. Um, they're just looking at it as an overall and yeah, I guess have these guardrails, but all you always want to be digging in and figuring out how, how each of these different segments perform.

And I think like, yeah, lead generation, is that a channel or would you class that as like a, uh, like an overall program? So yeah, maybe [00:25:00] that's another good segment to add to the list of things that we mentioned earlier. Like look at your different programs. So you'll have your lead gen program, you'll have your webinar program, you'll have your direct response program, your events program, all of these things.

Like they all contribute in different ways and they all progress through the funnel differently. So, yeah, it's a good one to add on to that existing, uh, bit of the conversation that we 

had. Right. Yeah. Um, I can't help but ask, but, uh, have you seen lead gen programs work or does it like really depend on business and industries and kind of personas that you go after?

Andrew Allsop: Yeah, no, I mean like that, the company that was talking about then it was, I think it was like between five and 10 percent of the leads they've generated turned into customers, um, which is not insignificant and brighter where we work now, we invest a lot in lead gen and that's generating a lot of pipeline for us at the moment.

I see that firsthand now. So, um, It, it does work. It's like anything like what works to certain [00:26:00] businesses doesn't work for others. And it just depends on the dynamics of your market. So I think where, you know, the two organizations that I'm speaking about there, you know, Brighter, who I work for now, and the other organization, they, Their markets were relatively, you'd say, not as tech forward as like a, someone by marketing automation software who is, you know, very chronically online, you know, myself would be myself, like, is aware of every single sales and marketing tactic that's happening.

And it's very hard to like, fly under their BS radar. But. Someone who, you know, who, who's, who has a more traditional worldview, who spends more time offline, who's more used to more, um, you know, traditional forms of marketing, and they're probably still going to respond to, um, marketing activities that people who are more tech forward wouldn't respond to.

So I think it's silly to say anything wouldn't work. And I think like I try to be agnostic about everything and, and, you know, and analyze things [00:27:00] rather than saying, this is the sort of common knowledge and that's how I'm going to approach things or that's how I'm not going to approach things Um, I think it all you know, every single part of marketing it all comes down to experimentation alongside that comes analytics, so Um, if you've got that framework to analyze to experiment and analyze then it's hard to go wrong. But yeah, I understand where the criticisms of lead generation come from and you know, it's like It's that you could say that same criticism about absolutely anything, but, um, there's a lot of nuance that goes into it.

And if you ignore that nuance, then you could miss a, you could miss a big opportunity. 

For sure. I think if I'm being completely honest, over here at RevenueHero, we've, we've not done the typical lead gen campaigns, uh, yet, and it's one of the things that I've, I, you know, I'm pushing my team is at least experiment, right?

Like, let's not dismiss it because like an influencer said it [00:28:00] on LinkedIn. Uh, right? Like, yeah, it, it works well for them probably. But let's test it out. Let's figure it out. What works figure out what works for us and what doesn't work for us and then come to conclusions. So, yeah, we're, we're in the works of like, uh, starting that pretty quickly starting that experiment pretty soon.

So yeah, I'm pretty excited about it. 

Andrew Allsop:
Yeah, I think it's just, you know, think about it from first principles. If, if like, and I think this is the, this is the trap that marketing fell into is leads just became a proxy metric for success and then we lost relationship between success and leads generated became more and more tenuous over time as we just got better and better at pumping that metric without You know, figuring out why we're even doing it.

Um, but yeah, from a first principles point of view, like if someone's willing to exchange their contact information and wants to keep up to date with [00:29:00] what you're doing and you know, you've got a, you've got a meaningful program to continue communicating with them and continue adding value, like, is that like, is there any way that that's not going to be a success, but if you're purely like, yeah, I just want to pump the lead numbers and, and that sort of thing, then it's probably not going to work out well for you, but, um, Yeah, I think, yeah, think about things from a first principles perspective, have, have a, have a, take the point of view of, um, the person who's on the other side of the screen and like what they're going to take from this and obviously analyze it and what's the word that I'm looking for, not interrogate, but, you know, look at it deeply and, and, and, and make your own meaningful opinion about the, whether you get any impact from it, that, that you're hoping to or not.

Yeah, I think there's just a lot of noise on LinkedIn, just on this, right? Like, lead gen versus demand gen, all that stuff. So I think what you said also makes a ton of sense, right? [00:30:00] Like if a marketer or a salesperson that is also tech savvy probably understands all the nuances that's. You know, and knows what's going to happen the minute you share your email ID, but somebody who is probably not tech savvy or probably who's not a marketer or salesperson is probably not aware of like what might happen after they share the email ID yet, but, but it's also probably genuinely curious about like what you have to offer, right?

Like you put up that landing page or whatever that lead magnet is, right? And this, there's a reason they gave their email IDs. So, yeah, uh, and I think a tangent to this, right? Like, given all these data providers, like, say, Cognismm and the likes, right? Like, uh, there's also the, the, the, the debate of like, hey, If you want email IDs that you want to, you know, uh, reach out to run campaigns for, and all this stuff, like you can just [00:31:00] buy this software and you can just use the email ID that they give and start your campaigns, right?

Like, like what is the thought process for you over there? 

Andrew Allsop:
I mean, I mean, do the, do the analysis, look, look at, look at the conversion rate of, of an email that you've, you know, generate a hundred contacts from Cognism and generate a hundred contacts through a strong lead magnet. That's like really associated to the value that product provides, analyze how they progress with the funnel.

Like a contact generated from Cognizant is not the same as a contact generated from someone who has opted in and, you know, is completely different. Um, but you know, In terms of, I like, I don't see why you wouldn't have both running concurrently. Like, or why would you completely negate email as a channel?

Like email works well for so many organizations. I think that's common knowledge, but then I was saying [00:32:00] that the way to generate emails isn't part of that. Um, like almost every enterprise organization that I works for has a webinar program that contributes significantly towards their revenue. And the majority of them.

People who've joined those webinars are generated from Opted in marketing contacts. Um, but like, it's not really like, I don't, this, you know, this whole argument around that kind of stuff. I feel like people have to take an opinion on things because that's how you get, that's how you get engagement on LinkedIn.

Like there's no, there's no real value in terms of exposure that you're going to get by sitting on the fence or having like a nuanced point of view on something. And if you have an opinion that is. You know, it isn't distributed to the degree that it should be because people should scrutinize lead gen programs more.

And I've seen as much failed ones as I've [00:33:00] seen successful ones like. But there's a different motivation, um, to going viral on LinkedIn versus being in the trenches as an organization, building, building sales and marketing programs. So, um, I think that, yeah, it's great. I think these conversations are extremely valuable, but you know, you need to.

Like any, anything in life, you need to draw your own opinions and, and, and, and, you know, from your own experiences, rather than just outsourcing that someone else, because it's really easy to get drawn into like, you know, we, as humans, we see people following someone and, you know, we raise them up on a pedestal and think that their point of view is the right way.

And, um, There's value in that and there's entertainment in that. And there's a lot of good stuff in that, but there's, you know, the majority of good stuff comes from self actualization and drawing, drawing conclusions from your own experiences. So, yeah, it's not like, it's not a common, it's not a, it's an argument that I don't want to get into because [00:34:00] there's value in it, but, um, I do, I definitely find it interesting.

Um, but I feel like it's been go on LinkedIn and there's plenty more people that are doing it way better than I will be able to. 

Amazing. I think if, I think one thing that I'll definitely take away from, from our chat today is segment, keep segmenting. Don't forget to look at cohorts, see which channels are performing for which segment.

Double down on that and don't forget to analyze and go deep on all your analysis. 

Andrew Allsop:
100 percent scrutinize. That was the word that I was looking for earlier. Scrutinize everything that you do. Scrutinize.

Amazing. Awesome. Andrew, this has been great. Thank you for joining the show. It's, it's been amazing. It's, it's great that we finally got to chat. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks a lot for hopping on the podcast today. 

Andrew Allsop:
Yeah. Thanks a lot for the [00:35:00] opportunity. It's, um, it's such a nice experience to just sit and chat to someone about these kind of things.

So yeah, thanks so much. And I hope that your audience find it as valuable as much as I enjoyed speaking to you. Amazing. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

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Listen to unfiltered views from fellow GTM experts on things that keep many sales and marketing folks up at night only on The Revenue Stream podcast.

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